Islam, Christianity, Sword/violent verses & mentalities, Bhagavadgita – notes

29/03/2020

This is a somewhat of a detailed rejoinder…

…to a comment made in the context of my previous post:

 

Akhilan, a dear friend of mine (not that I have met him in person, and hope he reciprocates my respect to him; however, it is fine if he doesn’t too! erm, especially after this post) for a while now, had the following to say by way of his comments:

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Dear Sir Akhilan, thanks for the feedback. I always appreciate the points-of-views of sane and kind folks (such as you). Or so I would like to imagine.

0. Am also nobody to comment on anything. But I do. You could, of course, therefore. Even otherwise, sir. All I am saying is, as long as we are able to undertake evidence based discourses and are amenable to feedback based on data & factfulness – we should. At least till we reach the undertaker, so to say.

Considering the fact that there are way too many juvenile folks & assorted riffraff blathering away to glory, precisely based on zero datapoints or even without good intentions – it is our duty to do some responsible commenting, well, almost

1. At the outset, let me make it clear that I do not understand (not even pretend to!) the details of as to what is ‘consciousness,’ ‘God’ etc etc – though I fashionably consider myself as an atheist. To some extent I believe, I understand and have internalized the idea of Ishwar, as per the cosmogeny in Bhagavadgita. (there are many, many cosmogenies and evolution/creation ideas in Dharmic works)

For me, looking at fine, soothing things like this…

… is being close to my Ishwar, that’s all.

2. I know that NONE of the books (Bible, Quran, Bhagavadgita etc – though the last one is in a different class altogether) were the words of God. The ‘messengers’ and ‘prophets’ were of course, self-appointed. They could have had certain psychological, neurotic issues – but who does not have them, eh? There is NO way to figure out. All such things are human-made. No doubt. Prophecies and ‘revealed words of God’ are pure bull-shit if we actually consider them so.

But, if we are actually drawing parallels amidst the three texts, Gita has perennial philosophy contained in it & I relate to it. Where as Quran is mostly a handbook of details of one way to approach or perhaps, hate life. Bible+ is a mixed bag. I like some of the psalms, and can reproduce many from memory. I like my ‘old’ testament much better for the raw energy and violence(!) in that. I love the botany of it.

2.1 ‘Jesus’ never existed – and if at all, the idea is/was a mishmash of various characters. Bible was written by many people, edited massively. Most of it is just stories, collected from here and there. Bible was put together centuries after Jesus was supposed to have died. Again ‘authoritative’ versions like the King James version were brought out much much later.

2.2 ‘Muhammad’ probably existed – may be, in parts. But Mecca association is false. Mecca must have been the Petra of Jordan. Quran has so many stories and ideas lifted straight from older books, folktales – and even from the Bible. There are some inconsistencies and errors too. (as in the case of depictions of Mary/Mariam – for example; frankly a ‘God revealed text’ ought not to have issues like this?)

Quran was put together quite a few years after Muhammad supposedly died. There were many (conflicting) versions of it – but, the third Caliph Uthman created the Quran (with the help of pliable clerics and scribes) as we know (kind of) – and, once he created his ‘official’ version, he collected & consigned to flames all other versions existed at that time because he wanted no dispute! He deployed his soldiers  to do the job in the territories under his command. (This begs many, many questions such as: Did God give many versions to Jebreel? Did Gabriel goof up because of sheer fatigue of back-and-forth and created many strands of the revelations as he pleased? Or does it mean that there were many versions of the same basic teachings that Muhammad told his gathering/believers at various points of time? Or does it mean that there were many scribe dependent versions?).

Whatever be the reason, some versions did escape the fire, apparently. In the past few decades (in Yemen and in Turkey, IIRC), a few other partial copies have been found/unearthed, belonging to that period, immediately after the ‘death of Muhammad’ – and there ARE inconsistencies, fudgings and overwritings in them, when compared to the the current/official version.

The current Quran is again, is a one put together officially, IIRC, by Cairo’s Al Azhar university Islamists in 1950s or thereabouts. They once again edited/purged and brought out an authoritative version. This is the one widely used now, as the ‘Word of God’ as informed by Jebreel/Gabriel to the chosen (and definitely) last prophet and noted down by Scribes and versioned by Caliph Uthman.

2.3 But Indic faiths are Not-for-Prophet loose fitting jigsaw cut organizations and ideas within a social and ethical fabric. There are many, many texts, or a corpus, if you will – not one single, monolithic text. Even those texts acknowledge that they have evolved, layers added and much else. And, yes – Gita has ‘violence’ – it also has its contexts – but, I have always maintained that violence (like many such constructs) and ‘threats of violence’ are very useful in society. (In fact, I would say that the idea of ‘violence’ is unfortunately given a negative connotation, which I think it does not deserve at all. IMO, violence is part and parcel of the societal fabric, that which maintains order/rhythm/dharm – and like everything else, it should not be overused or abused – that’s all)

2.4 Please show me ONE single case in which Gita has been used to kill people. Can even one instance be shown where fanatical folks of the Indic faiths, quoting Gita to incite violence, indulged in gang rapes, beheadings, slave taking, wiping out of indigenous cultures? Even a lone single evidence?? Like ‘Gita in one hand & Sword in the other?’

2.5 On the contrary, there are thousands and thousands of well documented examples of the Abrahmics (primarily Islamics and Christians – and to a much less extent & much earlier, the Hebrews) holding ‘their book in one hand and the sword in the other’ and decimating all the ‘other’ people and associated pagan/infidel/kaafir cultures.

3.0 We can always talk about ‘frame messages’ and ‘contexts’ and ‘situational logic’ and ‘literary flourishes’ and ‘metaphors’ and imageries etc etc to justify the Sword verses and violent ideas – and ‘normalize’ them.

But the proof of the  Abrahamic Sword verses is in the blood. Innocents’ blood. Massive scale rapes. Huge slave taking. Depradations. Beheadings. Crucifixions. Burning. Forced conversions. Castrations. Vandalizing and razing of the sacred places of the Others. And, using the ruins/debris to build up Abrahamic structures. Using the murtis/idols of other faiths as stepping stones. This list is endless.

And then, there are these casual slurs of Abrahamics to channelize their hate rather mildly – calling the Indics ‘cow urine drinkers’ and ‘devil worshippers’ or ‘satans’ and the like.

Am not even going to talk about the latest in the series of damnable Abrahamic faiths – Left-liberalism, with its own deluded homophobic Prophets like Karl Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Polpot – and our own sad/diluted current Prophets such as Sitaram Yechuris… and their foot-soldier believer Kameraden. Their paid/funded hirelings & goons as in ThePrint, TheHindu, NDTV et al.

Anyway!

4.0 If we read the exploits and killings directly committed by the Missionaries & in particular, the Jesuits (in South America and our own Bharat (in Goa) for example and to start with + if we learn about how Northern Crusades happened or Africa was ‘conquered’ etc etc) to further the cause of Christ – if we read up about the Islamist self-congratulatory verses/texts and texts extolling mass murders and genocides etc… Even Nazi’s contributions to the civilizations, even the dastardly slaying of millions by Stalin, Polpot, Mao tse-tung and the leftist gang – would pale into insignificance.

5.0 If we read up diligently, with notes, authoritative & critical editions of Quran and Bible – Bhagavadgita’s verses are not a patch on them at all. Not at all, with respect to ‘violence.’ There is NO thread of homophobia, treating other civilizations as sinful and worth subjugating kind of crazy ideas at all. We must also note that Gita is not ONE, SINGLE standard work that one HAS to adhere to, in Dharmic paths. (if one does it, it is fine, but if not, each unto his own, that’s fine too!)

6.0 Considering everything, every-time I think about all these historical pasts and get worked up — I once again realize how it is a fantastic MIRACLE that Dharmic religions have survived to this day. (but the Abrahamic genocidal ways are still being massively marshalled! Clear and Present dangers!)

7.0 However, I am still optimistic – though I cannot still myself. Hum honge kamyaab. We shall overcome.

7.5* Bharat mata ki Jai.

Thanks again and hugs:

__r.

* all roads lead to 7½ – and end there! ;-)

10 Responses to “Islam, Christianity, Sword/violent verses & mentalities, Bhagavadgita – notes”

  1. Sridharan Says:

    We are living in a time and place where the brainwashed religious fanatics involving in brutal massacre of innocents in the name of ‘religion’ and ‘one god’ are called ‘shaheeds’, and when they meet their logical end then it is termed as state sponsored ‘terrorism’. There’s no shortage of these kinda stooges out there. The questions to be raised by any sane common man are,
    Does any Indic religious text say that their god is the only god and others are devils/satans?
    Does it say the unbelievers are not fit to be humans and hence they must either be massacred, forced to covert or be enslaved?
    Does any Indic religion elaborates the strategy (starting from barbaric violence to cunningly playing the victim) in order to probagate itself?
    Can the same be asked about Abrahamic religions, the latter one in particular?
    Why the so called leftist/liberal/athiest intellects EXCLUSIVELY target and belittle Indic religions time and again whereas they dare not to even raise a finger at the Abrahamic religions?
    When a common man of this country tries to find answeres to these questions without falling prey to the misinformation spread around by the liberandu clans and the media propaganda then one would get a picture of what’s going on. Basically, need to take everything with a pinch of salt which the Indic texts highly recommend.


    • Hmm…

      Deracination and Coconuttization are severe issues. Our solutions perhaps can only start from extensively rewriting our school texts. Exporting coconuts. Stopping the negative effects of Abrahamic evangelicals of all hues, including LeLis. And, creation of more indic entrepreneurships. Good R&D and startup+finishup cultures. Revival of Sanskrit. Recovering Tamil from Dravidians. Taking pride in our matru-bashas. Shunning the glitter jiginawallahs and arbitrary protestdom. Being a good, decent combo of Warrior – Scholar – Entrepreneur – Doer aam-janta folks.

      Our attitude & relentless slog will set us free. Yes.

  2. Akhilan Says:

    Sir, It is a privilege for me being a friend of yours and thanks for considering me as one. And many thanks for considering my comment and giving an informative blog post in response to that.

    To some extent, I share your idea indicated in No.1. Completely agree with 2.3, 2.4. 2.5, 4.0. 5.0, 6.0, 7.0 & 7.5 What is indicated in 2.1 & 2.2 are informative and quite logical to understand. I can’t agree or disagree on the statement “ Jesus’ never existed”, based on my current knowledge on this idea.

    Coming to Point # 3, I can’t disagree with the facts you indicated. However, I think, I have few words to say. The Abrahamic religions were used as tools for power rather than using them as a tool for human evaluation. The originator of those religions, might have an idea (at least partially) to give a tool for fellow human beings evolutionary process. At least a small portion of those texts may be taken as an evident for this assumption.

    Now, nearly two third of world population is already converted (probably 99% of them are forced conversions or greedy conversions) into Abrahamic religions. Of course, the generations came out of a forced converted is also considered as forced converted. If one is really concerned his evaluation in line with religious philosophies, why the hell one get forcefully converted into any other religions – It should either be a natural conversion or conversion is not at all required. The point I am trying to say is, 99% of Abrahamic religious followers are there just for their survival. (Does not mean, all other religious followers are for some other purpose. It is just that the force did not reach them – in majority of the cases)

    Many many generations passed away after this conversion, and now few of the followers (if at all) of those religions may be really make it as an intended tool (Not for power). what is the path forward for them ? Either they should renounce their current religion and go to old pagan religions or throw away the power part of their current religious texts. I think, the possibility is the second one and hence for them, the context play the role (for few of the texts, remained even after throwing away the power part), I think.

    Based on my limited reading, Indian religions are progressively evolved and this evaluation process was mainly away from power. Even if the power was a supporting factor for evolution, they were not used as tools for power. This may be the reason for Indian religious scriptures are not bathed on blood.

    Now,

  3. Sridhar Says:

    I haven’t read any of the books in full, but a few excerpts here and there. As far as I understand, the crucial license to interpret and act as per one’s Swadharma (BG 18.63: Thus, I have explained to you this knowledge that is more secret than all secrets. Ponder over it deeply, and then do as you wish.) gives a lot of responsibility to the follower. So, clearly, The Gita is not in the same league as the Bible or Quran – even if there is a reference to violence in it.

    A statement – be it from scripture or a call to action by a poet/leader has to be judged on its effect and not by the statement or its various interpretations. We know what ISIS, Taliban, Maoists and the worldwide terrorists’ organizations use to justify their agenda. A Hindu does not hide behind a scripture for his actions but is responsible for his own actions. We do not have the burden of interpreting Gita as its essence is available as unwritten, but well-understood dharma of the land.

  4. அல் பசினோ Says:

    தினம் கரானில் இருந்து ஒரு வாசகம் படிக்கும் வழக்கம் எனக்கு உண்டு.அதற்காக எனது மேசையின் ஒரு மூலையில் பெவிகால் போட்டு அந்த புத்தகத்தை ஒட்டி வைத்துள்ளேன்(இல்லாவிட்டால் விஜயன் அதை எடைக்கு போட்டு பட்டாணி வாங்கி தின்றுவிடுகிறான்).அவ்வாறு தினம் ஒரு வாசகம் படிக்கும் போது அன்றைய நாள் முழுதும் ஆர்பரிப்பாக இருக்கும்.இன்று படித்த வாசகம் “அவர்கள் முகத்தை முதுகு பக்கம் திருப்புங்கள்” -இதை வாசித்ததும் கைகள் முறுக்கேறி அந்த மாவுக்கடை காரனிடம் இதை சோதித்து பார்க்க எண்ணி அங்கெ சென்றால் கடை லாக்.திரும்பி வந்துவிட்டேன்.இப்போது காகன்லால் படத்திற்கும் பவர் ஸ்டார் படத்திற்கும் வசனம் எழுதி கொண்டிருக்கிறேன்.-ஆசானு


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